CKLN FM 88.l Ryerson Polytechnic University Toronto INTERNATIONAL CONNECTION Producer/Interviewer: Wayne Morris Tape 15a Claudia Mullen Good morning, and welcome to another International Connection. This is show #15 in a series on mind control. This week we will be hearing Part 3 of an interview I conducted with Claudia Mullen, a survivor of US government mind control. Claudia describes what she remembers of the mind control experiments at Tulane University in New Orleans, starting when she was eight years old. Claudia is alleging that the CIA and U.S. military experimented on her and other children using severe trauma, drugs, electroshock, hypnosis and other methods to control her. She claims she was trained to sexually please men by the CIA and was used as a young child and a young woman for sexual entrapment of military and government officials. This week she talks about how she was used, the doctors involved in the experiments, and the mind control projects she remembers being involved with. You are listening to CKLN 88.1 *********************************************************************** CLAUDIA MULLEN: ...the doctors were the only ones who could save me. The doctors were my friends. I had to listen to the doctors and only them. They wouldn't name any names specifically, just to say "the doctors, the good doctors". All my life I always -- if anything was wrong, I always went to a doctor because this was ingrained me, that doctors were the answer to everything. And believe me, my whole life, when I wasn't going through this stuff, I was constantly having something wrong with me. I was in and out of the hospital. I had all sorts of illnesses which they could never diagnosis specifically what was wrong with me; a history of headaches, migraine headaches my whole life, and the headaches were from the shock. They hit you hard, those headaches. You wake up from getting shock treatments and your head just feels like it is going to explode. So that would get you on painkillers and get you addicted to painkillers so you would have to keep going back to get more painkillers for headaches. I had surgery I found out later didn't even need to be done, that they were looking for things that were wrong with me. I would go to other doctors, and they wouldn't know anything about this, they would just -- I had episodes where I was vomiting constantly, couldn't keep any food down, was losing weight, and I had exploratory surgery and they never did find anything wrong with me. WAYNE MORRIS: Where was the surgery done on you? CLAUDIA MULLEN: In my stomach, abdominal surgery. They took my gall bladder and appendix out, but there was nothing wrong with them, and I kept vomiting. What it was was body pain, body memories coming back. Before the actual memories came back, the actual flashbacks come, you get the body pain first. That's the first sign that you are getting a memory. It usually starts with a headache, and then stomach-ache, cramps ... the actual pain of the memory without the actual memory, you would just get the pain part. Pain comes first, always. Pain is a barrier to remembering. Because you would be in so much pain, you would want to get rid of the pain right away, so I would call up Dr. Charles Brown who was the, friend, the one I told you about, who was actually my monitor and friends with Darlen Fenner, Robert Heath, Martin Orne. I would go to him and say I am having these horrible headaches, cramps, they won't go away. Of course that would be a sign to him that she's remembering, she's going to start remembering pretty soon. So then he would take me to Dr. Heath and he would say well he's going to fix me up and he would give me more shock treatments and I would go home and forget. WAYNE MORRIS: He would give you electroshock ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yeah. And then painkillers for the headache that I would get afterwards. But the body pain would go away because I would start remembering. So I would start having nightmares about snakes or weird things and I would go to Dr. Brown and say I am having these nightmares and he would think oh she's going to start remembering things so we'd better do something. It was usually shock that they used, but sometimes they would use trauma, just traumatize you so much you would just forget. WAYNE MORRIS: And how would they traumatize you? CLAUDIA MULLEN: It depended on what was going on at the time. Sometimes they would send me to ... they knew people in the city who were involved in the white supremacy groups ... sometimes they would send me out to Klan meetings and I would have to go to one of them at night and watch things being done to other people and then ... have things done to me ... be raped or eaten or whatever ... you had enough trauma to make you forget whatever you were starting to remember. This would make it go away. Then you would forget this as soon as it happened too. Because nobody wants to remember something like that. One of the mind's defences I guess when something really horrible happens is to forget it right away, usually. If it's bad enough. And then of course I had the personalities ... they would come out for the trauma and then they would go back ... and so Claudia would have no memory of what just happened. My shadows would, but I wouldn't. Unless they would give me the memory, it was as if it never happened to me. I would be sore, hurt, bruised, whatever, but I wouldn't know why so I would go to Dr. Brown or Dr. Heath and they would explain what happened to me. And usually they would make up some story about how I tried to hurt myself, that I tried to kill myself again. I thought I was suicidal my whole life because they told me I was. WAYNE MORRIS: Did you feel the doctors were deliberately creating dissociation with you? CLAUDIA MULLEN: They knew that I could dissociate from the beginning, so they just caused me to dissociate even more, because the more you split, the easier it was to hide what they were doing. In other words, you can only split ... they can't make you split, can't make you dissociate, but they can create the circumstances that they know if you are able to dissociate you will, you will do it. Like the trauma I just described, by sending me out to a Masonic Lodge for a party ... they would send me out and they knew something horrible was going to happen to me. They knew that I would split. That someone would be created to take whatever happened that night, and probably that's all they would do, and then they would go back, and then, you know, go to sleep, become dormant. These are the shadows that I've talked about, that I have integrated. Once they gave me the memory up to that experience, then they integrate. So, they create circumstances to make you split, and split, and split, and the more you split the less chance you have of ever healing ... the more crazy you are going to sound if you ever do go to work with a psychiatrist, therapist, because there was always that chance ... that I might get away from them and seek help from someone other than the "good doctors" that I knew already. So they had to make you seem as crazy as possible, and of course, the more alters you have, the more bizarre you are going to seem to people. The more bizarre the trauma ... like the camp I would go to across the lake ... that Mr. Fenner had ... they would put on these ceremonies. A lot of times it was fake stuff. They would pretend to cut people open or kill babies. Back then I thought it was real, it was all happening. If you describe something like that about a ceremony where a baby is cut up and killed and eaten, people are going to think you're insance, this didn't happen. So they would kind of mimic Satanic rituals to make it seem like that had happened, and if I ever told anybody, they would dismiss it right away. WAYNE MORRIS: So you feel that these things were done basically to cover the doctors' tracks ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yeah, right. To make it seem, if I ever remembered, I would remember first the incest stuff, the stuff at home, and then it would gradually go from that to the ritual stuff. Rituals meaning either Satanic stuff across the lake ... rituals ... like the white supremacy groups ... like the rituals that they do ... burning the crosses. I mean I actually saw them kill people, black people. This is like in the early 60's. I went to a couple of Masonic parties at a Lodge which was located right near the research building ... the research building for animal research in New Orleans, and it is still there as a matter of fact. I have been back there. They sent me there sometimes, for certain tests, for experiments ... there was a Masonic Lodge right around the corner from it ... and they sent me to a couple of parties there. These people go crazy at these parties. These men, they just get drunk and ... they pass you around ... it's horrible what they do. This of course makes it seem like ... if I remember ... well, I remember being at this party and these men were hurting me but I don't remember doctors being involved, I don't remember Tulane University being involved, or anybody from Maryland. I would remember this Masonic Lodge and so that's how they cover their tracks. WAYNE MORRIS: Was it sexual abuse that was going on or other kinds of abuse at these parties? CLAUDIA MULLEN: They would make you perform sexually. They would make you watch other people perform. They would have everything you could imagine, even bringing in animals ... and you had to watch. It's just as bad as having it done to yourself ... sometimes watching is just as bad ... WAYNE MORRIS: Watching it being done to other children or ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yeah, especially if it's people younger than yourself. You're a child and you have to stand there and watch a little kid, half your age, being tortured or raped, or whatever. I mean, that's as bad as having it done to yourself. You would almost rather it be done to you because ... you know what it's like, and you don't want to watch it. Then they would give you the choice ... well, then, you could take their place. And then you would have to make the decision whether it's going to be you or her, and then if you decide not to do it, then you have to live with the guilt that it happened to someone else because you decided not to do it. So they had you either way you looked at it ... you're screwed either way usually. There was no way out of any of these situations. WAYNE MORRIS: When you remember this Lodge, did you make attempts to verify where it was? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yeah, we went there. We went to the Lodge, talked to people, but it's not a Lodge anymore, it's a public health building now. We talked to people who said, yeah, it was a Masonic Lodge at one time. Valerie and I went there. We went to Camp Nichols which I said was a police training ground now, but they said it was an arsenal at one time, and we went into a room where I stayed when I was there. They did some kind of bizarre ... I guess I was about eight ... there were two other children I was put with ... a boy and a little girl about five years old. And they would do things like ... I guess just to traumatize you ... they would do things ... sexual to you, or physically hurt you, beat you or whatever, and then they would say, well, you have to choose somebody, which person is going to live or die? The boy or the girl? They would give you choices like that. Impossible situations. And then, they would go through the motions where they would take one of the kids outside, kill them, they didn't, I am sure they didn't, I'm sure it was like a play they put on ... but it was just to put you through these mind games ... just to mess up your ... I don't know what they were doing ... just trauma, I know that. By the time they were finished, you didn't know if you were coming or going. It just seemed so bizarre, and if I had ever remembered it before now, before I had a good therapist to help me, and who validated the fact that these things do happen ... anybody else would think you were just crazy, and they would lock you up and throw away the key. WAYNE MORRIS: I think that was their intent. It seems that incorporating ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: And there were a lot of messages they gave you over the years, that if you did start remembering this, the guilt would be so bad, that you would have to kill yourself, and they were hoping that by now, I would have killed myself and I haven't (laughs) ... they are pretty pissed off about it, the people that are left ... WAYNE MORRIS: Did you feel that they were using this trauma to create dissociation for other purposes than just hiding the fact that they were doing the experiments on you? CLAUDIA MULLEN: I think they were doing it also just to see what they could do ... they could take a child's mind ... and what could they actually do? How much could they cause her to split? How many times? How much could they do to somebody, and how quickly could they forget it? Just to see what could be done ... just for the hell of it, I guess. WAYNE MORRIS: Perhaps that was part of the experimentation itself ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yeah. They had a lot of different projects. It wasn't all sexual stuff -- there were a lot of projects that were just about mind control. They had these names for the projects that were -- you would never know what the project was really about -- Sensitive Research - that was part of the Operational side of the CIA -- that was a department of the CIA - well, it was sexual stuff. Sensitive Research? That could be just about anything, right? And Uncle Richard was head of the Sensitive Research Department, "Dirty Tricks Department" he called it. Uncle Richard turned out to be, after I described him, and had a lot of memories about him, I found out from one of the experts that his name was Richard Helms. WAYNE MORRIS: And he was the CIA Director at a certain point ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: When I knew him, he was the Deputy Director ... they called him "the Deputy". I can remember being impressed because I loved cowboys, cowboy movies and stuff, so when he told me he was a deputy, that's all I heard, and I thought he was a deputy like in the Old West. He didn't really molest me or do anything to me until I got to be about 13 and then he started all of a sudden ... it was "call me Uncle Richard". Before that he would pretty much dismiss me or talk around me or not pay any attention to me. I was always really impressed by that because he seemed to have a lot of power, everybody seemed to listen to what he had to say, he dressed in the most expensive clothes, he always looked really nice, he had everybody waiting on him hand and foot. He was an impressive man and I was always in awe of him. All of a sudden, when I turned 13, he started paying attention to me and that really impressed me. I thought I must be really special ... this guy says call me Uncle Richard now ... it turns out he liked teenage girls, he didn't like children. He would purposely take me to places where he knew they didn't have cameras because he knew all about the cameras, the filming. WAYNE MORRIS: I wonder if we could go through the people that you have mentioned in your testimony and if we could talk one by one about exactly what they were involved in ... in the experimentation? Maybe we could start with Sidney Gottlieb ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: Okay. Sidney Gottlieb is one of the first people that I remember from when I was 8 years old, he was there from the beginning. I knew that he worked for "The Agency". They always referred to "The Agency". They made no secret of the fact that it was the CIA. Sometimes I would overhear or they would tell me which department they were from -- he was in the Science and Technology Department, he said. He worked very closely with Martin Orne, a Dr. Steven Aldridge, and Morse Allen. Apparently he and Morse Allen had been working together since this whole thing started -- since the late 1940's or early 50's -- and they were all good friends with Richard Helms too, which was kind of odd because they were complete opposites to each other -- they seemed like people who could never get along together, yet they were very good friends. Gottlieb had a lot to do with radiation -- with any kind of research. I remember him all the way from when I was little through the time I was in high school, and after that I didn't see him much, I didn't hear about him much. I don't know where he went, what he was doing. He must have been involved with something else. WAYNE MORRIS: So, how many years was he involved and what happened to you? CLAUDIA MULLEN: >From eight years old to sixteen years -- about eight years. He told me he raised goats. They would talk about themselves sometimes. It is amazing. These people would just ... as if they figured I wasn't going to remember anything when I left, wherever I was. So they were just free to talk and sometimes they just used to like to brag about themselves. I remember so much about them because basically they were arrogant, most of them were arrogant people and they liked you to know how important they were, or how many kids they had, how much power they had -- so they would say what their title was or something to impress you I guess. Thinking the whole time that "she is not going to remember" or thinking they are talking to a child who doesn't even understand the words they are using, not knowing that years later I am going to remember the same words and understand their meaning. WAYNE MORRIS: You mentioned Dr. Ewen Cameron was specifically involved in the electroshock. You do have a sense of how long of a period he was involved with your experimentation? CLAUDIA MULLEN: They called a lot of them in as "consultants". Dr. Heath or Dr. Green would say, "let's call Cameron in ... to test her." Next thing I knew, I would be called back to Tulane and here was the "Camera Man", Cameron. He came in around 1960 when I was about 9 or 10. He was there a lot at first, testing how much electricity was too much, they didn't want to fry my brain or anything because they needed me to seem fairly intelligent because I had to associate with people. I had to go back to school, so they had to be very careful when they used stuff on me, they couldn't disfigure me. I guess I was lucky in that sense, that I was in a private girls' school, I was from a wealthy family and they had to send me back home. My family wasn't involved in this per se. My mom knew they were using me, but she didn't know what exactly - so they had to send me back in fairly good condition. So that made me one of the lucky ones. For the ones from homeless families, or poor families - they didn't care what condition they sent them back in, or even if they sent the child back at all. They would use things on them that would disfigure them, but it didn't matter. In my case, I was fortunate. Another thing was that Dr. Heath wanted to implant something in my brain and Mr. Fenner wouldn't let him. He said how am I going to explain this to her mother? We can't send her home with her head shaved, so I got out of having implants in my brain because of that. But you asked me about Cameron. I knew him from about 1959 or 1960 and then when I was in high school one day, just out of the blue, someone said, "he fell off a mountain" - somebody named "Cleghorn" was coming to get me to do the electric shock. I was told years later, that yeah, he was mountain-climbing or skiing and fell off a mountain and died, so that was true. WAYNE MORRIS: Did you have a sense of who this Cleghorn person was? CLAUDIA MULLEN: He worked with Cameron very closely. I guess he was from the same place. He liked to use electricity, only he thought Cameron didn't use enough. He believed in using a lot more. He didn't try to get along with you, or act friendly in any way. He was very cold. Whereas Cameron could talk to you or attempt to be friendly. Some of them were like that. They would introduce themselves, ask questions. Others just did what they had to do and got out of there and never said a word. WAYNE MORRIS: So how many years did you come in contact with Dr. Cameron, from 1959-60 until when ... CLAUDIA MULLEN: I think until I was about 16 or 16 1/2, so that would be 1966 or 1967 and I was told he had fallen off a mountain. I know I was in high school, the latter part of high school. Around 1966 or 1967. The thing I was telling you about - the messages he would give me - he would tape record and then they would play at night? They called it something called "psychic driving". That's what the messages were called. WAYNE MORRIS: And Martin Orne? What was his involvement? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Oh boy. He was one of the scariest people. He was with Dr. Brown, my monitor, at the NIH in the 1950's and they were good friends. He said he was an expert in lie detection and that he could always tell when someone was lying, that he had invented the lie detector or something ... He is a very arrogant person and thinks a lot of himself so he could have told me a lot of lies about what he could do and what he couldn't do. There wasn't anything he couldn't do ... supposedly. He could tell whenever you were lying. He hated everyone. He didn't get along with anyone. He called me "the little bitch" - that was his nickname for me. He wouldn't even call me by name. He mainly did hypnosis type stuff, he was always there for the shock treatments, if nothing else, just to watch ... When they asked me questions, he would be the one to tell them whether I was lying or not. He would have me hooked up to a couple of machines, he would have electrodes on my head and he said he could read the machines and tell whether I was lying or not. I guess it was like a lie detector, I don't know. He's still alive.