Trauma memories - I saw a recent article - are stored in a more primitive part of the brain called the amygdala. Basically what happens is if there is information to remember, and there is pain associated with the information, then the two get stored together in the brain. In order to remember the information, you also have to remember the pain. What happens with these clients is that there was so much pain from the electric shock, from the other things they did, or drug effects - because sometimes you get drug effect or very drugged kind of memory - but in terms of the physical pain - Claudia for example. In order for her to "remember", the first thing she is going to remember is the pain ... wherever it was in her body. It is stored with the information. If you intervene and reinforce the amnesia, the pain before the information comes, you don't remember the information. In order for them to remember, they have to go through the pain first and then the information comes. WILL SNODGRASS: So is it fair to say then that the U.S. government was using the barrier of pain as a barrier to memory? VALERIE WOLF: Absolutely. And it is difficult, hard work. These two people are extremely courageous. They come in and they know that when they are working, they are going to be in a great deal of pain and they are willing to go through it, because they want to be free. And I want to say the purpose of treatment here is not to uncover memories. The purpose of treatment here is to undo the messages they were given and there were a lot of them. I have been a lot of thinking lately as to why some people have to remember and some people don't ... even though they have both been traumatized. And what I realize is when someone is traumatized, if the perpetrator is silent - when someone is traumatized, they basically go into a trance - you have to get away from it somehow so you separate from yourself and you go into trance. If the perpetrator is silent, then nothing much really gets in. Then those clients where the messages are separate from the actual trauma really don't have to remember the trauma. But those clients where the messages are part of the trauma have to remember the trauma. The point of therapy is to get to the context, to get to the conclusions that people drew about themselves and the world from the trauma. To get to the things were said to them. The things that were said to the mind control subjects in the experimentation were deliberately said to undermine their personalities, to make them self destructive, to make them not remember. That's what we want to get to. It so happens we have the memories and I try to validate and verify where I can, but again the thing is to restore their functioning. WILL SNODGRASS: How many children do we believe were taken into these government programs for these purposes? VALERIE WOLF: Honestly, we really don't know, but just considering the numbers of people who are coming forward, our guess is thousands. WILL SNODGRASS: Are they remembering the rooms, electrodes, these kinds of things? VALERIE WOLF: The memories are extremely consistent. In preparation for my testimony I sort of talked with a few people, word got out and almost 40 therapists called me from all over the country - from California to New York - all over the country giving me information and supplying back up documentation, statements from clients all over the country. It is remarkably consistent with the report. And these people don't know each other. They haven't talked with each other. For example, I am the only one in my area, that I am aware of, doing this work. I have talked to one other person, but I haven't really talked to other people nor have they talked to other people. So, were are not sharing the information, we are hearing this stuff independently. WILL SNODGRASS: Chris, how did your memories start to come out and what can you tell us about your experience? In other words, you have told us about the rooms, about Dr. Greene. How did you start to remember these things, and in detail? In a synopsis, as much as you can share with us, what happened to you? CHRIS DENICOLA: I had no memory of anything until I was about 22 years old and that's when I started to remember my Dad sexually abusing me. Then moving in - it seems that I first started to uncover the easier to handle memories. The sex abuse memories were easier to handle than the mind control electrodes and all of that kind of thing - the Kansas City thing I was telling you about when I was four years old - that didn't come until later. I didn't remember that until maybe three months ago. I started to remember the sexual abuse and then it went into remembering that I had memories of just being tortured and actually, a lot of pain, Dr. Greene inflicting a lot of pain and a lot of different experiments. It's hard to wrap it all up in a nice little ball for you ... WILL SNODGRASS: Can you describe some of the things Dr. Greene did to you? You mentioned a doll today. CHRIS DENICOLA: He performed a radiation experiment on me in the black room. It was approximately 1975. I was strapped down on my back, naked, and I had electrodes all over my body and there was a machine, and parts of it looked like an xray machine you might see in a dental office and he put three across my stomach and pointing at my vagina and he told me I had the choice of either going outside and killing a doll, which could have been a child, or I could not do that and be a murderer as far as killing unborn children - I would never be able to have children. He was trying to get me to go kill the doll, so to speak, because he was training me to be a spy assassin and I refused. I didn't want to have any part of killing anything, a doll or a thing. So I refused, and my father was involved with this experiment and they went around a corner and they flipped on a switch. I heard a drone sound as the machine started up and then a buzzing sound, and I felt pain throughout my body all three times. Then they - it was because of the electric shock - they were shocking me at the same time they were doing the radiation - they came back out and said that I was a worthless, insignificant bitch, and that I was a murderer, and instilled all of these negative messages along with more electric shock. After the radiation I felt nauseated and threw up, and Dr. Greene got mad about that and started shocking me and after that he gave me a shot, and next thing I knew I was out in the desert strapped down on a table with more intensive electric shock to the point where I would pass out, and continuing with those messages. Knowing that I was a good person, to think that I was insignificant, that I was worthless, that I was a murderer would be devastating to me. Basically he wanted me to commit suicide because I wouldn't do what he wanted me to do. I fought him all the way. WILL SNODGRASS: Claudia, do you remember your experiences? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Oh yes. There are so many. Like I said, I was tested at Tulane and at several other places outside of New Orleans, and then once they decided I could become part of the projects - and they had a series of projects, the Umbrella project, and the Bluebird which became Artichoke and then came MKULTRA and each one on down the line. Each one had a different purpose. I was taken on train trips, planes - small planes to different military bases. I was taken to places out in the woods - I guess Tulane was the worst where I would receive intensive electric shock, isolation for days, sleep deprivation where they would attach electrodes to me and if I started to fall asleep, they would shock me - enough to wake me up. You couldn't sleep for days. The messages would start - "your mother doesn't love you, she left you here, your mother doesn't want you, you are too much trouble for her, you are a very evil child, you want to hurt people, you want to entice men." My adoptive father was very ill and he died when I was very young, so I was taught to take to older men and encouraged to become friendly with older men and eventually, when I was old enough, I was sent out into what they called the operational field and I would be photographed with government and agency officials (CIA), doctors who were consulted, heads of universities and private foundations - all under the chance that if the government funds started dwindling they wanted to be able to blackmail or coerce the men into making sure the projects continued. That was the ultimate goal. The projects had to continue at all costs. They had to train a certain amount of young females to go around and I was sent to a camp in Maryland for three weeks when I was nine years old, and that was my first training on how to sexually please men. I was through a training course, like a seminar. There were children of all ages - even younger than myself. Teenagers, young adult girls there. We were all assigned someone there, and at the end of three weeks, we were taught. They decided it was a success. It was a CIA project. It was called Imaginative Research. They had to give a name to it that they could release and document because they couldn't really put down what it really was. It came under the heading MKULTRA, project 74, and I was subject #3. I remember we were given a number. We were allowed to choose a name and after the three weeks I was sent home. For the next few years they worked on making sure I was amnesia controlled, making sure the amnesia barriers were in place so that if something should ever happen to me and the memories should ever start coming back, the pain would come first. I would seek help from the doctors who I was taught were the only people who could help me, the "good doctors". I was taught that doctors were the answer to everything. I had no reason to disbelieve that because every time I was sent home, I was told you are a good girl, you are cured, you are going to be just fine, you are going to grow up and have a lot of kids. I didn't even realize that they had taken that away from me. I didn't know I couldn't even bear children. WILL SNODGRASS: How did they do that? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Mainly by inserting things, electric shock, some of the testing they did. They just produced enough scar tissue that they blocked my fallopian tubes and I can't bear children. WILL SNODGRASS: You were tortured. (Yes) How many times? CLAUDIA MULLEN: (Laughter from Claudia, Chris, Valerie about the question) Uh ... from 1957 to 1983. I mean sometimes it would be for a week at a time. Sometimes it would be overnight. Sometimes it would be once a month. It just depended. They had to of course adapt to my school schedule. I went to a private Catholic girls' school, and I was taken out of school for periods of time. My mother would tell them I had to go visit relatives, or my father was very sick and I wanted to spend time with him ... my father was terminal. They had no reason to question my mother's motives. My mother was told by the doctors that I just needed to come back for some treatment. It would always coincide with times when the men could get away -- holidays. The CIA kept hotel rooms in two of the best hotels in New Orleans, and year around, they kept a suite. It was unique in that it had two bathrooms and one bathroom was where they kept the hidden cameras and I was actually shown the hidden cameras by three men who handled that part of it. They called him Captain George White - he was formerly a doctor. He used to be in the narcotics squad in California and then he became a doctor, and joined the CIA. And then there were two other men who worked with him. They would put me with the subjects who would be filmed (the men) and then when the men would come into town -- I am talking about local politicians, government officials -- anybody who they needed to possibly get something on, keep on file for future reference -- should they need to coerce this person into supporting the projects. Senators, congressmen, anything like that -- if they were in town, they were given this room. They had no reason to think there was anything strange about the room. It didn't look any different than any other room -- it was just one of the better suites in the two hotels. I was shown how the cameras were set up behind mirrors -- behind the mirrors which are in every hotel room, behind the dresser. They would sit there and they would film it and later on they would show me the films. And they would say, you don't want anyone to see this now do you? And that was one way of getting me to want to forget. WILL SNODGRASS: You mentioned the CIA -- you heard the word CIA again and again. From your memory, CIA type documents come up. You were listening as a child, and you heard things, and you saw things. CLAUDIA MULLEN: They started when I was very young like I said, and they knew that they would be able to produce this amnesia. They were so certain that the amnesia would hold for as long as they wanted it to, that they had no reason to hid anything from me, plus they considered me too young to understand what they they are talking about. You've got to understand, it is very important, to keep the child you are working with isolated from anyone else. So that no one asks them any questions. So that they learn to trust just the doctors, scientists, researchers, the consultants. They have to learn to trust these people. These are the doctors that are helping them. But you can't be around even nurses in a hospital. They would always keep me very close by and they would put me on a sofa and give me a blanket and say, "take a nap" and give me something to make me sleep. And I was told "this is very important to the President, he would prefer you not to look at the faces". I thought that the President knew about all this. I thought I was helping my country. I was told "this is to help stop Communism" "we need to do something to help stop Communism". WILL SNODGRASS: You were how old? CLAUDIA MULLEN: When I was first told this I when I was nine and I went to the Deep Creek Cabins in Maryland. That's when I was taught I was going to be part of this project, I had been accepted into this project, that I had been accepted into this project that would help the government stop Communism. At that time the Cold War was on, and it was very important. We were even taught in schools about Communists. They had reason to think they had to hide anything from me, so they would have conversations about the projects, about so-and-so - what he's working on, where he is, where he is from, they would call each other by name. They would have suitcases with their nametags on them, briefcases. I met with Richard Helms who was Deputy Director of the CIA for a long time. I met with him lots of times. I mean I got to know them all on a first-name basis. They would say, "call me Uncle". Of course, every now and then they would expect "a favour" but then you would be assured they were not being filmed. Somehow they managed to film almost everything except Dr. Martin Orne - he's the only one who never got on film. WILL SNODGRASS: We're talking about sexual intercourse here, with very young women? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Yes. WILL SNODGRASS: How young? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Well there were children younger than myself, as young as five years old. WILL SNODGRASS: Sexual intercourse? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Actually it was anal intercourse until you got to a certain age. Until you got sent out into the field as, you know, an operative -- to target these officials and get them on film. The idea being they wouldn't want a child who had been abused over a long period of time. They would want a child who was innocent and pure, and this was your first time. You were taught other ways to please men -- anal intercourse, oral sex, everything else. WILL SNODGRASS: >From memory do you remember the names of some of these projects you may have seen written or heard, spoken? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Well, under the Umbrella Folder, the first one was Artichoke which could produce amnesia and also to develop polygraph techniques. That's where Dr. Martin Orne came in. He was supposed to be an expert on polygraph. He worked with the Technical Science Division of Edgewood Arsenal as did Dr. L. Wilson Greene. There was MKDELTA, MKNAOMI which was germ warfare. They were laughing about how they would drop canisters of toxins -- they had no idea what effect it was going to have -- they would just wait five or ten years and see what the effects on this neighbourhood was -- a poor neighbourhood. I was told about using retarded children in East New Orleans and exposing them to large doses of massive radiation and they saw no reason not to use them because they were already retarded, they just wanted to see what anamolies would develop over the years. WILL SNODGRASS: You were allowed to testify today, I assume, because there was radiation involved. Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences with radiation? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Well I was exposed to not as much as a lot [of people]. I was exposed to a lot of x-rays because I was given physicals quite often to make sure I was kept healthy. They didn't want me to ever bear children, they wanted to make sure I would become sterile so they exposed me to radiation for that purpose I believe. Also to scare me. They never protected me in any way, they never covered me with any kind of lead apron or anything. But mainly I overheard about the large doses of radiation that were exposed to masses of people. I wasn't involved in that, I just overheard conversations. I received small doses of radiation. I was fortunate in that way. WILL SNODGRASS: Chris, today you talked about being in a cage and escaping and some of the documents that you saw? CHRIS DENICOLA: Yes. That took place between 1972 and 1976 and basically Dr. Greene had taught me many tecqhniques as to how to be a spy, and I didn't want to have anything to do with them and I was angry and they would put me in a cage after traumatizing me in some form or another. There were times when they careless during this period of time, and whenever physically possible I snuck into Dr. Greene's office and looked at files. These files contained project, sub-project, subject and experiment names for the CIA. I saw all of these different files at first, and they were all coded with different colour -- a purple sticker, something -- an orange colour. Some were on radiation. The one that I saw on radiation I opened it, and I had a photographic memory and remembered exactly what was written -- subject name, code number and then the names and some of the code numbers, experiment names, code numbers, and some of those names. I also remembered seeing memos to -- a subject name, code number, CIA classified, then a 6 digit number -- either to Frank Harris, Internal Affairs; from Trenton Cox, an alias that Dr. Greene used; also it would always say "confidential information" on it. Then there would be the code number again, the experiment name, and then subject, explanation, either successful or unsuccessful: and a brief summary of their findings on that subject in that particular experiment. The project, sub-project, subject and experiment names that I remembered, the memos - the CIA memos that I saw and had written out by memory, have not been verified at this point in time. They just recently surfaced within the last three months. So, I cannot say as would Claudia if the MKULTRA is verified. The names I have seen, and all the information that I have written out, typed out to give to the Committee to the Presidential Hearing today -- none of that has been verified by Alan Scheflin at this point. He hasn't had a chance to research it; however, he has been able to verify that the format and some of the terminology and some of the names such as Robert Levine, one of the people who was on one of the memos, he could verify the format -- he could verify that what I was remembering as far as memos -- maybe some of the project names -- but I don't know. CLAUDIA MULLEN: The project names had to change from time to time, you've got to understand. They couldn't keep the same project names because they had to get funding from different sources. The funding couldn't continue from the same source for any length of time. The government would only sponsor it until 1963 and then the President put a halt to it supposedly, so they started getting it from other sources, and then they would change the project names. They were constantly changing - there was Project OFTEN, Project CHATTER -- that was one of the early ones with a Dr. Went who was head of that, and that was to get interrogation techniques to get captured soldiers, POW'S to talk. The list went on and on -- I overheard so many names and sub-project numbers -- I remember the numbers. The ones having to do with sex had low numbers -- project #2, #3, #7, #12 -- they were mainly under Dr. James Hamilton. He was the head of those. He was one of the consultants. He didn't work at the CIA. He was a consultant to the CIA. CHRIS DENICOLA: And with me actually Dr. Greene started to go -- he really couldn't do it in the laboratories anymore as much -- so he went into kind of criminal type sex rings -- that's where he continued his experiments. That was more of his setting. WILL SNODGRASS: You mentioned Tucson earlier today and you describe drives that you took from one place to another. Would you talk about that a bit? CHRIS DENICOLA: Up until two and a half years ago (I am 32 years old now) so up until I was about 29 I would get calls from time to time and I would not remember the phone call. All I knew is that I would be driving to Tucson, Arizona from Calfifornia where I was living at the time. I didn't know why, my adrenalin was pumping, "I had to get there, I had to get there". That's all I knew is that I had to "get there". On one particular occasion I was supposed to arrive at a certain hotel at a certain day in time. I was able to somehow break it and turn around and drive home before I got there to the hotel. Yes, they monitored me up until that time. WILL SNODGRASS: Valerie, what are they doing? VALERIE WOLF: Basically this is being reported across the country. There is a certain segment of these clients that were being followed or monitored. One of the things that they knew is that eventually the amnesia would break down and that they would need to do periodic check-ups and periodic reinforcements of the amnesia. So the people they had worked particularly hard with I think they assigned either relatives or family friends or people who were associated with the project but not really on the payroll of the CIA or the Army to monitor them. So if they showed any signs of having body memories that we talked about before, the pain or anything like that, then they could move in and reinforce the amnesia. I think one of the reasons that we are hearing more about this now and why there was so much interest in it two and a half years ago, is because it's been a long time, and I think the amnesia is breaking down. WILL SNODGRASS: The viewers are going to ask one question: WHY? Why would the U.S. government do that. Do you have an answer in your own mind? CLAUDIA MULLEN: Well, they thought, at first, that they had good intentions. They thought it was the best way to handle the Cold War. Dr. Greene himself said that he could come up with war without using guns, without using any kind of ... I mean, he worked at the Edgewood Arsenal and he wanted war without death. So he said contol the mind, control the behavior, and you've got war without death. CHRIS DENICOLA: I don't believe that fit with his personality, do you understand what I am saying? He really had an ulterior motive -- he was a very arrogant, cruel man to be able to do these things. And to feel power from doing this to people. He was into power. CLAUDIA MULLEN: That was probably to make him sound like was a wonderful man, a "scientist" [war without death] ... I believe like Chris does ... he was just a sadistic, cruel hearted man who enjoyed torturing children. VALERIE WOLF: I think the other element here, and if we listen carefully to what they have said, is a lot of this was done for the personal gratification of the people involved. Sexual gratification, sadistic gratification, I think they had "fun". That's putting it very crudely but I think that's another reason it got continued as long as it did.. ****************************************************************** You have been listening to an interview by Will Snodgrass with Valerie Wolf, Claudia Mullen and Chris Denicola Ebner done the day just after they gave testimony about the Mind Control Experimentation on Children at the Presidential Human Radiation Experiment Hearings on March 15, 1995. You also heard them give accounts of the National Security Establishment being able, through mind control, to coerce prominent officials by sexually blackmailing them using children. Wayne Morris, INERNATIONAL CONNECTION, CKLN 88.l Toronto Ontario) *****************************************************************